I got one fer ya-- I woke up from a dream a Devil without a cause had a dream of a black chick ,white guy in the background i heard the Party Ode.Today im feeling like a Gangster from the Oldschool.
Rebel Flag?
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Rebel Flag?jade says (30 Jul '10)
Does anyone want to have a discussion about the rebel (confederate) flag? Like the iron crosses and swastikas used by the biker community, its an interesting use of a very controversial symbol that has its roots in racism. Does it work? have they completely wiped out the racist connotations of the the flag? Did they even want to wipe out those connotations? Do Americans have different feelings about the flag (as opposed to people in other countries?) and do different areas of the country have different attitutes toward the flag?
In these questions above, I'm using "they" as a general they... not KR/TBT specifically. Basically, "they" are any group that are using the flag for rebel (as opposed to racist) meanings.
what do you all honestly think when you see KR use the flag?
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Does anyone want to have a discussion about the rebel (confederate) flag? Like the iron crosses and swastikas used by the biker community, its an interesting use of a very controversial symbol that has its roots in racism. Does it work? have they completely wiped out the racist connotations of the the flag? Did they even want to wipe out those connotations? Do Americans have different feelings about the flag (as opposed to people in other countries?) and do different areas of the country have different attitutes toward the flag?
In these questions above, I'm using "they" as a general they... not KR/TBT specifically. Basically, "they" are any group that are using the flag for rebel (as opposed to racist) meanings.
what do you all honestly think when you see KR use the flag?
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Just to let ya know Jade, got a text, ......it' all good, just complete misunderstanding. Meant for peace. Hope that makes sense cuz I am not going to elaborate.
Year ago there was a member at KRAA who went by "Ruby"...which was her real name. When I first saw 'Ruby'...I thought of her, wonder how she's doing. Anyway...now I know for sure it's not the same 'Ruby', haha.
:-) TY dear!
Oh BTW like the name change HB!!
Completely understand on the conversations.lol I will keep you posted when I find out.
crossing my fingers it, is all good on the rationale.
Jade I could write blogs and blogs and more blogs,lol just some get too deep, so like I said on this site I just try and keep it more low-key here.
YW Missy... I like conversations like this, too. (certainly way more interesting than the fantasy lives of the fan population! lol)
I have a lot more trouble with the use of swastikas than just about anything, even though I know intellectually its a very old and peaceful symbol originally. Let me know what you find out about the MySpace situation--I'd be interested in hearing this person's rationale.
Jade, Thank you again, I texted the person's dad,told him to look in and read what I wrote. These(people) that I am talking about are young adults and I had invited them over when I saw them out over the weekend to have a BBQ and feed them, It's a COMMUNITY thing, we all look out for each other's and their own. The way it should be.
So he will get to the bottom of it. Picture a bunch of young adults with an issue they are not quite sure how to handle and when you don't have complete info, It is hard to help. Thanks again.
Having said that without too many details. I have to keep my responses shorter, I have a huge party coming up, those that know me, or have an idea about me know I like things just so.lol So my time is going to get limited on here with all the other obligations and plans I have set in motion.
I have enjoyed this discussion/blog thus far and appreciate the views of others that commented and shared.
Ok I am gonna put this out there, to the best of my knowledge from what I gathered this weekend from the crazy conversation and other's chiming in and the music I couldn't understand, I am left confused.
Somebody put a swastika on their my space page(which I was shown) with this German music and the person who brought it to my attention is being unclear on their intent. They are taking it very personal, which I don't blame them, yet trying to get to the bottom of this and find out, might be something I will never know, since I couldn't get clear answers and how the conversation went and ended. I am not getting a my space page to befriend them, so I can help out and translate this. Be like a voice of reason in this situation. Yet others that were friends with them are rather upset on just the image. That's the long and short of my interest. Its was weird timing Jade that you put this blog up.
As it has been stated symbols, flags, run really deep and some have them embedded to what they mean individually, that just might not ever change. As far as to current day, I believe their is more division than united, That is not what I would like to see also IMO it is getting worse, maybe media, maybe politics, maybe disasters, maybe economy, family stresses so many other factors, it is endless the thoughts. I just like I said keep an open mind and don't judge(for lack of a better word) fast if it has nothing directly to do with me. Did that make sense?
For the record...my family and friends tell me my over friendly nature and trusting personality towards strangers...is gonna get me hurt or in trouble someday. Well, I'm 53 yrs old, will be 54 in August...the only people who have ever hurt me or got me in to trouble in my lifetime, are those I'm related to, loved & trusted. Go figure, haha. :)
LOL I knew what you meant Missy, haha. I'm serious though...about not seeing color until it's brought to my attention. I gotta tell a funny story, I just got to, haha. When I was in Canton last year for DT's HOF Induction, we were tailgating in a parking lot near the HOF. Well, there were two guys across the street, up the way a bit...standing and chatting by their car. I hollered out and asked if they wanted any of my cookies...they looked at each other oddly, but then walked over to where we were and took some cookies, chatted briefly, walked back over to their car. I noticed one dropped something in the street out of his pocket without knowing it...so I went to the street, picked it up, then walked over to them on the other side of their car to give it to the guy, telling him he'd dropped it.
Once again they looked at each other oddly, and then one of them says to me, "my friend and I were just talking about you, and you've been with a black man haven't you?" I said, "what? what do you mean?" He said, "you know, you've been with a black man, made love to a black man." I laughed and said, "um, no, I've not been with a black man, I was married once for 37 yrs, to a white man, and recently divorced, he's the only man I've been with my entire life intimately." Wide eyed he said, "no shit, you've only been with one man, that's like a virgin!" I laughed again and said, "why would you think I've been with a black man, just curious?" He said, "because no white girl is gonna holler out to two strange black men and offer them cookies, then walk over to their car after dark by herself not afraid, unless she's been with a black man and knows not to be afraid of black men." I actually found that sad, that he thought that. Anyway, I laughed and said, "by golly you are black aren't ya!"...then I became serious and said, "I don't see color, until someone brings it to my attention, of which you just did, so yep, you are black and I am white...as far as being
and Blue, yup... a lot of these symbols are so very old and have had different meanings at different times. That speaks specifically to my original questions... when and how can these symbols be redefined and used in different ways?
Its a good point. Its been done before, is it working this time?
I'm gonna assume you aren't talking specifically to me, CJ, cause I'm far from politically correct! LOL Surely anyone who reads my comments on this site generally would know that about me!! :-)
but this is just a discussion, not a mountain. I find the use of language & symbols interesting---and I think discussions are a good thing--, and that's cool if you don't agree. but that doesn't make my opinion, or the discussion itself, wrong or bad. or hypocritical!
I think, also, we come from very different viewpoints/worlds. I, like Missy, have no intention of talking about the details of specific people in my family, but suffice it to say I have a very multi-racial, multi-religious family. My family has been the target of much prejudice and much hatred (and certainly not so much from crazy liberal politically correct nutcakes!) So, maybe for those of us that have been on the other end of the racism equation, these conversations carry more weight.
this is no bashing, btw, and I never said (or even thought) that you were in any way a racist.
as a side note, I hate it when people ask me what my ethnic background is, or "what are you" kinds of questions. I *always* answer American. I actually kinda dislike the St Patrick's day kinds of holidays, too... I'd rather have just American holidays. *shrug* So, I don't think a lot of what your saying is wrong CJ. I'm just kinda surprised that you sorta seemed like you decided to use those things to attack me (as the one that started this discussion).
peace girl!
All of these symbols are found in our earliest prehistory as humans, it's the circumstances that cause you to brand a feeling or image in your mind. German on Mom's side, and no one had a heck of a lot to say about WWII. Shudder to think what my distance relatives might have been responsible for to survive that war. Hell no to genealogy, lol.
I see that flag, and I see black and white Life mag images of black folks being bitten by dogs and hosed down by local fire and police departments. Can't help it. New Hampshire state flag bugs me too. Hate that broken up snake.
Connie Jo, I didn't mean any of that in a bad way, guess I wasn't expecting it. LOL cause I have been following blog and my thought process is all over with all of it and I was just not talking about U.S.A
Holy Shit, You just went real deep. I ain't gonna bash you. Most of it I agree with. Then I come into the part where these are only conversations I will only have with a group of open-minded people which are very close friends and family, that know me personally. Sorry I have boundries and this is one I am not willing to discuss on a site as this. I appreciate your honesty though and putting it out there. Kudo's to you,
Honestly, I think people make mountains out of molehills since political correctness became trendy. I believe so called political correctness or awareness, has done more harm than good with eliminating racism, I believe it actually encourages division among people. It draws attention to the differences in people, and in my opinion, that is the opposite of what should be happening to eliminate racism. With God as my witness...I can honestly say I am not racist...when I meet someone, my first thought is not of what color their skin is, their race or nationality. whatever...I do not see skin color...that is, until it is brought to my attention that someone is a different race or nationality than I am.
Since this conversation relates to racism against blacks, I will use these examples...I wouldn't have thought about Obama being half black and half white...had there not been so much overwhelming attention focused on such bringing it to my attention. I can honestly also say, when it came to vote...I was a minority who voted based on merit and experience, researching both candidates...rather did not vote on color of skin, a vast majority can't make that claim...both blacks & whites voted based upon their own skin color, not merit or experience, and NOT for the right kind of change, rather change of skin color in the presidency, be in denial if you want, but the statistics speak clearly.
I wouldn't look at Oprah and my first thought be she's black...and didn't, until she became obsessed with it, and constantly reminds everyone of such. I became so sick of attention being brought to her blackness, I stopped watching the show. Seriously, why all the attention on who is what color or nationality...can't you see it creates division, rather than unity among us as Americans? Another example: why are there 'Black Music Awards', and while I'm thinking about that...why aren't there 'White Music Awards'? Hell, if were gonna divide ourselves by color, should
Also it was a German Band that the conversation got brought up with, Yet I have yet to see the lyrics cause I can't even remember the name of the band, Just heard some music(very loud, not good music IMO)Then the swastikas came up and the conversation went crazy LOL
Jade, I get what you are saying, I guess alot of my interest was the swastikas, and that in my conversation this weekend, it was very much so about the History, and Hitler and trying to completely explain why people take it so offensively. It does send a strong message. I know what you are saying as far as bikers. Glad to read what you wrote. Yet that isn't what my conversation(off net) was about. It was what that symbol represents to so many and how you use it........is a fine line.
I get the rebellion part, and also wish there were others ways to interpret that universally, unfortunately it does send a message and 1 that is not happily received by others. This is actually a personal thing I do not feel comfortable putting out here on my interest just looking for others views,
Thanks Jade you just asked so many questions all at once LOL and it is difficult to answer and my mind is quick, just wish my fingers could keep up, and time allowed.
Missy said: So very sorry I could not stay on topic, but in my mind it is very hard to answer these QUESTIONS you asked just as 1 facet, I hope that made sense.
no need to apologize, Missy! I agree with you, I think this is a complicated subject with lots of different ways of thinking about it. and it does seem very related to things like the use of swastikas, which is why I keep bringing them up. (I, myself, though am only writing from a US perspective. the swastikas are used here in the US by biker clubs for their shock value and a sign of rebellion)
Yet I forgot to type, I am thinking faster than I can type, sorry that is a fault on net. We are the melting pot so to say.
Wish we coulda had this conco last week and I could take the time to type out all my thoughts and they would make sense to where I am going.
I want to say this real fast about the Rock and Rebel tour, I traveled for that tour, both North and South, I met alot of people from tail-gating. and other sources. To get to the point, I met ALOT of young people like 18-25 years old. I assumed right off the bat they were their for Kid/TBT when that wasn't the case at all. They wanted to hear L.S. I asked why, since I am so inquistive, and the flag, especially in the Northern States. NOT 1 said it is about racism, They had talked to their parents and appreciated the fact that they never got to see the origional band. The music that is getting produced now is bubble-gum music and there doesn't seem to be pride anymore. So my take is they wanted some History, good music, and a fun experience. Take in mind only some did I get to see some after the show, and no doubt they became fans of Kid/TBT. Also met people that stated rather bluntly, there is no way that L.S should be opening up for Kid Rock, that was in the Northern States with the same principals the others had spoken. Ironically I went with one person that when L.S changed their flags thru songs and sets, it was apparent to me the message of SOUTHERN PRIDE in the positive sense. I was kinda shocked by his take on it, I said did you notice the songs they sang, when the Confederate flag appeared and the message they were sending. He never looked at it that way. That is what I call ignorance, he woke up. Then again he doesn't get into music the way I do, so he was seeing them/things differently. He appreciated the knowledge.
Overall I am a very social, out of net person. I have been very fortunate to have met some other great people along the way, all over the world!!!
Go overseas and some just automatically, think,We are ugly Americans, Just because our politicians can be assholes, doesn't mean I am one. Wear the American Flag over there, you better watch out!!! I got friends all over the world now, I like it!!! It comes down to the individ
Thanks everyone for the thoughtful comments so far.
Yes, Missy--I think I understand your points. and appreciate you taking the time to respond. (I'm having a slow workday myself, so I have the time!) :-) I also find it interesting to talk to older people (who lived pre-civil rights) vs talking to younger folks on subjects like this. There tends to be wildly different views there!
a couple of people have said that other people than southerners (northerners and other countries) were racists and had/have slavery. I have to confess, I don't understand what the point is to this argument. Yes, lots of people in this world are racists. That doesn't mean that the history of the confederate flag is any *less* steeped in racist ideology. It just means lots of people in this world suck. So, for me, that particular argument doesn't carry any weight on this topic because it doesn't change the history of the flag, or the ways in which people currently use the flag.
Mimi--I hear you on how sometimes these symbols can be used in different ways, even though the use is subtle. We (my biker husband and I) are like that with bikers and the swastikas/iron crosses. Sometimes its hard to pin-point but you just get the feeling that one biker will use them as symbols of being a rebel and others are for true racist purposes. I think this is at the heart of why I think that co-opting (and re-define) these once racists symbols doesn't really work for me--because in some cases they are still used in a racist way. I'd much rather we find other symbols of rebellion.
I see the Confederate Flag both ways.
As an overall representation of the Confederate States, I see the rebel flag as a symbol of Southern Pride. Yes, the issue of slavery was the primary catalyst for the civil war, but that was not the only issue for the southern states. As abhorrent as I find the practice, at the time the issue of slavery was rolled up in the economic as well as other issues in the south. Looking back on history, we can see the practice of slavery as a racism issue. However, at that time free blacks were being discriminated against in the north and they were not accorded the same rights as whites. Therefore, the racism issue was spread throughout the country, not just the South, which I think gets overlooked in efforts to condemn the South for slavery.
Unfortunately, the Confederate Flag came to represent racism because of the KKK and other bigots that never looked beyond the slavery issue, wrapped themselves in the flag and used it as their symbol to promote their repulsive beliefs.
What is my first reaction? It depends on the context of where I see the flag and how flagrant the use of the flag is. Normally, my first reaction is to see it as a symbol of Southern Pride or just a plain rebellious, dont tell me what to do attitude. However, if the flag seems to be overly displayed, I tend to see it more as a symbol of racism. Ex: There is a jeep I see around town that has about 15 or 20 Confederate Flag decals and 2 Confederate flags waving from the sides. Every time I see that jeep, I get very uncomfortable and my first reaction is negative.
Just my two cents worth.
On a lighter note. I myself, if Im going to wrap myself in flag other than Old Glory, will be doing so with my LONE STAR FLAG. After all, we do consider ourselves our own country ;) LOL!!!
Jade, good points you brought up and yeah symbols/flags are a tricky thing. I talk with alot of older people and what they grew up with and can relate on why and how in modern day things and intrepretations can come across negatively across all walks of life.
I am following this blog, Because it is interesting and I understand alot of what you said, hope you understood what I wrote also. There is alot I can add in this but that would require alot of typing and today I really have to focus on getting some work done. I will be back.....to read in and comment when I feel I can, Thanks.
One thing I don't like is stereotyping people, and that, evens happens in modern day, that can go on both sides and across many people of many differnt backgrounds.
Like I said, very interesting topic!
I have a couple of thoughts right off the bat. First of all, when I talk about the flag & racist connotations, Im kinda using some shorthand here. The flag itself is a symbol of the Confederacy, which is of course part of our history and certainly a big part of the history of the south. The Confederacy, though, and the whole movement to secede from the Union, is steeped in pro-slavery ideology. So, the flag for sure has a history that is clearly linked to racist thoughts. I am not sure anyone can argue any differently here (unless some parts of the country are taught a very different version of history), this is simple American History 101and Im assuming no one is actually arguing this point. Therefore, the question is more about can this connection/connotation be erased; can we redefine the meaning of this symbol. and can the flag be used as a new symbol of rebellious spirit that is inclusive of all race, creed, and peoples of whatever group?
This discussion really points out how vast and huge and diverse the United States is. Like the bikers use of the iron cross & swastikas, and the hip-hop communitys use of the n-word, Ive had to relearn what this flag *can* stand for (vs what it stands for in my mind) and that some groups have used all these symbols/words in new ways and are trying to redefine its meaning.. I see the flag and I immediate think racism. But I do recognize that its often used these days in a way that is not meant to be racist. But that thought is very wedged in my mind, Ill never be able to look a the rebel flag and *not* think racism, however briefly. Will I ever use the rebel flag (or use the n-word, or use a swastika)? Not a snowflakes chance in hell. But I can accept other people using them in certain circumstances.
As Blue points out, I think reactions will (and have) differ greatly to KRs use of the flag. When I have seen KR use the flag in his performances, I think
Ok only have a few, so nothing heavy from me on this subject, I have to go back to work today. boo hoo
Blue I could tell you some storeies and this blog could spin out in many different directions, which is not my intent, but through life experiences I have seen the bad and the good, I just choose to stay-with open-minded people or those that can offer me opinions respectfully that I might be able to identify with and see their point of view. That is how I lived my life. I can read how others represent themselves and until it is expressed their intent. I will stay with what I know and lived.
Having said that Stef is a woman , a musician and a human being, and a very good one in all 3 aspects. I for 1 believe whole heartedly that if she had any problem with that flag and the represention in the negative light, She would not be sitting behind BOB, playing in his band if he were that way. In fact you know he is not, just look at his family. SHE WOULD NOT BE PART OF IT! yes I am sure you might of been stunned, but by no means is that how that flag is used in the music industry, at least with the bands I talked about in this thread
Like I said life experiences and an open-mind help to navigate thru things better and with a better awareness. and a common respect for why others see things differently.
I think from getting to post with you, I start seeing glimpses of who you are, and why you might feel some of the things you do. I took nothing offensively at all. Like I said I am open-minded and more than willing to read another's point of view with an open-mind. I hope that came out right, cause I don't like typing in these little boxes lol
Was Ricky's portrayal on I Love Lucy racist as the dumb Cuban? DOH took awhile to catch on in our neighborhood, but, that damn General Lee won us all over. Mopar product. Guess it depends on your background.
Myself, I carry both Native American and Black American bloodlines. Being female, my first response to "the flag" was "I simply cannot believe what I am seeing," and repeat viewings took away NONE of the sting.
Still stayed to hear the band, but..... And like I said before, following the news alerts for a couple of years I've seen this topic brought up time and again. Think it's a good idea that Bob toned it down.
I dunno, was Duke's of Hazzard considered a racist show? lol
That honestly was pretty much the most exposure I had ever had with the flag. I didn't take it as racist by any means, just the "Good Ole Boys" southern feel is all I have ever really gotten from it. Or maybe that is just what I wish to remember, Cause Somewhere in the back of my mind, I do know that I was aware of it's "Racist" persona also. I grew up in a pretty racist/prejudice environment and remember the swastica's being more the symbol of racism than the Rebel Flag.
As far as the flag flying behind Stef, I have to believe that she knows how Bob truly feels about the flag and what it means for him. I also have to believe if she felt it was meant as anything Racist, it wouldn't have been behind her. I wouldn't doubt they have had a discussion or 2 about it. Something the common person like us on this forum don't have privy too. So in my book, I'm sure it's all good in her book.
Just saying, Missy, no offense. I was pretty stunned to see it done, LOL. To her credit, to the best of my knowledge, Stef has never stated her feelings on it. Think it was used for several tours in a row. Boy, looking around the casino crowd, you could see a bunch of them just close up and leave. Mistake in my opinion, though sure in Jacksonville, Florida it played like the best thing since sliced bread.
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